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Shiv Balakrishnan

A Digital Filter Issue in a Scope Display

Shiv Balakrishnan
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MD
MD
4/13/2012 10:49:59 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
Ah yes, TRW. I just checked – still have various data & apps from them spanning 1977-1983 – multipliers, filters, FFT...

I actually have a few of those monster (64 pin) DIPs – multipliers & flash ADCs – with built-in heat sinks. Cool...umm, hot stuff.

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jsalsburg
jsalsburg
4/13/2012 2:47:37 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
My memory did not serve me well, the Chip I remember was from TRW, (now Northrop-Grumman). It was physically large and definitely was for a dark Military purpose. It used a triple-diffused bipolar process to build more complex functions, such as the 16x16 multiplier (MPY 16), used together with the AMD 2901 bit-slice processor for video and defense applications in the late-1970s.

To make an FFT Processor from these Chips required a bit reverse and Radix circuit to be added. This was real hardcore DSP.

I actually drove to TRW (Space Park) sometime in 1979 and requested Datasheets face to face, surprisingly they gave them to me over the counter.

http://www.computerhistory.org/semiconductor/timeline/1979-dsp.html

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MD
MD
4/9/2012 6:21:11 PM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
The first DSP? Okay.

I'd forgotten about both chips Shiv mentions. 

I do recall reading papers or articles about AT&T's DSP1.

The NEC 7720 also rings a bell, and reminded me of a very odd chip they later released, called a dataflow processor. I don't think I ever quite grokked that one, but I probably still have a datasheet in my files!

According to Wikipedia Shiv, you have some claim on the prize, but those weren't the answers I was looking for!!! ;-)

Jay mentions a Fairchild FFT chip. I don't have any specific memory of this, though I do recall various Fairchild chips (bit-slice?) aimed at fast processing. Does the name MicroLogic ring a bell? I think it was also Fairchild who produced a (not fast) 1-bit processor! Sortof a ladder-logic replacement...?

Okay, the chip I have in mind as the first DSP is the Intel 2920. I think it had onboard ADC & DAC. The biggest problem was its lack of a multiplier! Ooops.

Here's a Wikipedia excerpt:


 in 1978 they (TI) produced the first Speak & Spell, with the technological centerpiece being the TMS5100 [3], the industry's first digital signal processor. It also set other milestones, being the first chip to use Linear predictive coding to perform speech synthesis.[4].

In 1978, Intel released the 2920 as an "analog signal processor". It had an on-chip ADC/DAC with an internal signal processor, but it didn't have a hardware multiplier and was not successful in the market. In 1979, AMI released the S2811. It was designed as a microprocessor peripheral, and it had to be initialized by the host. The S2811 was likewise not successful in the market.

In 1980 the first stand-alone, complete DSPs – the NEC µPD7720 and AT&T DSP1 – were presented at the International Solid-State Circuits Conference '80. Both processors were inspired by the research in PSTN telecommunications.

 

I doubt the Speak&Spell chip can be considered a DSP. I'm pretty sure it just implemented LPC decoding. I don't recall it as being programmable in any real sense, though I may be wrong...

I recall the AMI S2811, but nothing in detail. Again, the datasheet may still be lurking here.

I am also reminded of some amazing Reticon chips - analog CCD technology that did discrete-time signal processing operations. I believe they had convolution/correlation chips (e.g., FIR filters), and also a part that somehow performed a Chirp-Z transform (I'm picturing a photomicrograph of a swept sine wave pattern of electrodes)!!!!!  

And if anyone cares, I designed (but never built) my own DSP board ca. 1980. It used a 16 bit MAC, a multiport register file, a bit-slice sequencer, data DRAM, and instruction SRAM about 136 bits wide! It would have run at 10MHz, but be able to do about 5 operations per cycle. Fun times.


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jsalsburg
jsalsburg
4/9/2012 2:38:02 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
If memory serves me correctly, my first recollection of a DSP Chip was from Fairchild around 1979-80, was a rather large 64 pin DIP, and was designed to run FFT requiring significant outboard support chips, memory, bus controllers, etc. It was applied to some dark Military purpose.

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Shiv Balakrishnan
Shiv Balakrishnan
4/8/2012 1:26:19 PM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
First DSP chip, eh?   My guess would be NEC 7720 (merchant) and At&T (internal consumption only).

 

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MD
MD
4/8/2012 11:50:19 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
Trivia question:

Who made the first DSP chip?

I could write what I think here, but I'll give others a chance first.

HINT: It ain't TI!

p.s., Only play if you know, or think you know. I'm sure the information is on Wikipaedia or something, but that's cheating.

Yup, those 56k DSPs were nice...

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Shiv Balakrishnan
Shiv Balakrishnan
4/8/2012 12:56:30 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
@jsalsburg, indeed you are correct, the prime examples being the Motorola 56K parts with 24- and 48-bit datapaths and 56-bit accumulators.  The NEXT machines used them I believe, with excellent audio.

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jsalsburg
jsalsburg
4/7/2012 10:25:54 PM
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Apprentice
Re: Dither, Flatness
In the mid 1980s when Large Scale DSPs started appearing they were all INTEGER-based and had Headroom Problems, but they spawned many high-end products like those form Eventide. Propagation of Monolithic DSPs into Scopes was delayed, at least for affordable Scopes, because of the very reason expressed, the lack of headroom in recursive algorithms. When Floating Point and 24-bit DSPs appeared and then were incorporated into Scopes, this performance problem was eliminated, allowing highly recursive algorithms to live without the distortion of the waveform caused by small Bit-Magnitudes.

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MD
MD
4/6/2012 10:38:54 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
Then, you are ready for his "4'33""! A good test for undithered channels would it be.

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Shiv Balakrishnan
Shiv Balakrishnan
4/6/2012 3:01:43 AM
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Re: Dither, Flatness
It's a curse, Womai, for Digitizing scopes -- they are still suspect even though the new ones afe far superior to the best-in-class Tek Analog scopes of yore!

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