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Ransom Stephens

Analyzing Crosstalk on a Real-Time Oscilloscope – Exercising Your Genius

Ransom Stephens
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Ransom
Ransom
4/10/2012 7:11:58 PM
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Re: DE!?-Emphasis
Right!! The interesting thing is multi-tap emphasis. And what would be really interesting would be to transmit a signal that had the inverse image of the filtering+attenuating properties of the channel so that you'd get a perfect signal at the receiver. Perfect, but of small amplitude.

So this is what de-emphasis tries to do and why it's sometimes called transmitter equalization. I really prefer calling it transmitter equalization, but I'll try to behave.

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Ransom
Ransom
4/10/2012 7:08:04 PM
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Re: Data extraction in RT vs. ET acquisitions
In most cases, the clocks are frequency locked, but the 40/100 Gigabit Ethernet spec does not require that they be so any component that wants to play in that game has to survive without locking.

Even though the nominal frequencies are the same, the effects on the bit error ratio are different. If the clocks are not locked, any jitter software you have running (unless it's a fancy new thing that with extra letters in its acronym) will confuse crosstalk for random jitter and random noise - even though it's pretty well bounded.

We'll talk.

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MikeT@Tektronix
MikeT@Tektronix
4/10/2012 4:01:13 PM
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Apprentice
Re: DE!?-Emphasis
oh, and unless a chip has extra power rails, or some sort of charge pump voltage booster built in, how can it drive the transition bits to a higher amplitude than the non-transistion bits?  Where does the boost come from?  The only thing the driver circuits can do is reduce the drive level on the non-transistion bits.  At the silicon level, it's not semantics, it's physics.  But of course, that doesn't necessarily justify calling it de-emphasis.  I just think that's where the term came from: the chip designers.

Pre means before, De means to reduce.  So they are not opposite terms, but describing different aspects of the same thing.

De-emphasis is opposite of plain old emphasis.

Pre-emphasis would be opposite of post-emphasis, which could be considered EQ at the RX.  (I've also heard "TX EQ" to describe pre/de/emphasis.)

So in the end, nobody cares about pre or de, they are meaningless.  Just filter it out and think emphasis.

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MikeT@Tektronix
MikeT@Tektronix
4/10/2012 3:50:28 PM
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Re: DE!?-Emphasis
I like emphasis, no pre or de :-)

When I said channel loss in audio I was speaking very generally.  Everything between the original sound being recorded and my brain is part of one big concatenated channel.  And when I say loss, I mean loss that varies with frequency.  OK, too many assumptions on my part.  Blame it on this lossy channel between our brains... the written english language, LOL

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MD
MD
4/10/2012 3:27:11 PM
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Re: DE!?-Emphasis
Pre/de-emph in audio is nothing to do with channel loss. Or audiofoo...philes ;-)

True, for LPs & tape it's usually called EQ, and it's to deal with the characteristics of the storage medium. RIAA EQ for vinyl attenuates the bass (or boosts the treble!) by 40dB. I think the NAB tape curve is similar, but less intense.

In FM radio, it is called pre-de-emphasis – the treble is boosted at the transmitter, then attenuated at the receiver, to reduce noise.

Few people realize that even CDs have the option of being pre-emphasized, by about 10dB at 20kHz, which the player then complementarily reduces on playback.

The FPGA transceivers I've used have the option to turn on pre-emphasis, which, as best as I can recall, boosts the edges, not the other way'round. The level of a long unchanging sequence is the same as it would be if pre-emph was turned off.

At this point, we get into pointless arguments about semantics and irrelevant implementation details. I just don't understand why the commonly understood meaning of pre-de-emphasis needed to change when there was nothing wrong with the existing one.

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MikeT@Tektronix
MikeT@Tektronix
4/10/2012 11:41:42 AM
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Apprentice
Re: DE!?-Emphasis
Pre versus De

"Pre" as in before the channel loss occurs.  This is the sense that audiophiles relate to.

"De" as in attenuating the level of repeated zeros or ones.  This what the TX driver actual does.  The transition bits are output at the set drive level, and the non-transition bits are otuput at the same or lower level, as set by the de-emphasis adjustment.

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MikeT@Tektronix
MikeT@Tektronix
4/10/2012 11:34:35 AM
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Apprentice
Re: DE!?-Emphasis
There is another aspect to emphasis, when multiple taps are used:  taps before the edge and taps after the edge:

Pre Taps and Post Taps.

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scopehandler
scopehandler
4/9/2012 9:33:37 PM
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Apprentice
Re: Data extraction in RT vs. ET acquisitions
Theorotically, argument can be:

Displacement in time or space induces a phase shift proportional to frequency and to the amount of displacement. This occurs because a given displacement represents more cycles of phase shift for a high-frequency signal than for a low-frequency signal.
If h(x) <-> H(f)
then h(x - x0) <-> (e^-j2pix0)*H(f)

 

This may help resolve the phase shift though clock frequency remains same.

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MD
MD
4/9/2012 6:28:43 PM
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Re: Data extraction in RT vs. ET acquisitions
Interesting, though I expect in most cases the clocks would be identical. Certainly they'll be very close.

For testing however, one could maybe change the clocks to clearly different frequencies. Then, the idea starts to look good :-)

But if we're allowed to do that, we could also turn on only one agressor at a time... Probably against the rules.

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Ransom
Ransom
4/9/2012 4:31:56 PM
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Re: Data extraction in RT vs. ET acquisitions
You're too modest.

It's not the direction I'm thinking of, but it sounds promising... now you have to expand (or submit the patent and make an appropriately smug post like "I'd explain it to you, but it's 'not obvious to one skilled in the art.'")

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